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Nexus Clash :: View topic - Melee Eternal Soldier - end game skills?
Posted: Mon Oct 12, 2015 3:07 pm Post subject: Melee Eternal Soldier - end game skills?
This is my Eternal Soldier for this breath. I got the core of the build already figured out, but at the end of if I'm going to find myself with some "spare" CP, and the skills left all have a "meh" taste, which make it hard deciding on which. I'm not shy of doing extra grinding (this alt has its share of badges already, included in the build) if it will mean getting a few more skills for synergy or something.
20 0 Way of Vim
20 30 Elite Attack
20 30 Way of Lightning
20 60 Infinite Attack
20 30 Way of Air
21 30 Way of Earth
23 60 Way of Fire
24 30 Master Smith
25 30 Way of Water
27 60 Master of Reflex
CP left at level 30: 90
Exploration badges left: 30
Skills with * are already bought. Char is a level 17 Myrmidon.
These are the skills I'm considering, from "Meh" to "Ugh" (you don't have to read them all if you already have your own opinion on them):
Swim
You heard it. Thing is, Way of Lightning doesn't give lesser flight status, so going through water tiles is still going to cost 1 whole AP. With this I can cut it to half, plus not worrying about drowning any more is also nice. And let's face it, I have 120 spare CP.
Master of Endurance
5 extra AP cap means, at the very least, I get to do just a bit more at raids (not factioned at the moment, but whatevs). 5 extra HP is nice, ditto about the +10 inventory spaces. However, I am not sure if it's worth the 60 CP.
Way of Antitoxin
The definition of "Meh". If I didn't have Meditation it'd be more enticing. Speaking from practice, however, last breath, when everyone and their moms had poison-enchanted clothing, it could become a real pain during raids to shake the poison off with Meditation, only to pick it up again with the next mook you tried to kill. I ended up buying this skill, anyway, and I have to say, for 30 CP, it wasn't that bad.
Master of the Flow
After extensive analysis, I deem this skill utterly useless against pets (like a 2-5% nett extra dodge), and only marginally effective against players - the 20% counts ONLY if your enemy has a 100% to hit you, and you are already bringing that down by some 30% base with your passive dodge. With the average tier 3 accuracy of 80%, minus your dodge, means you are getting about 10% dodge in the best (or worst, depending where you are looking a it) of circumstances. Its 60 CP and 3AP/5MP activation costs steer me away from getting this skill.
Master of Vigor
20 HP sounds spiffy, and the ability to heal yourself for 25 hp by spending only 1 ap/5 mp looks nice on paper. Rather situational, though, unless I had a reliable poison-buddy, which I don't count on; besides, will not the 20 extra HP only make me a bigger XP bag? I didn't get this skill last breath, so I don't know what it is actually like, but the 60 CP cost seems... meh-er.
Way of Urgency
A worse "Bolster Attack", at tier 3 and with higher CP and activation cost? :( Its only arguably redeeming feature is the +2 soak and the fact that you can stack it (I think, the Wiki doesn't have information on this; it seems not enough people have gotten this skill in order to make a reliable report. lol). I'm quite sure most ES users agree that this is skill is well in the "Ugh" side of things. At least it's only 30 CP.
Advanced Critical
I ran numbers some time ago, and this skill doesn't provide a huge impact in damage/ap in the long run, considering its cost. I could see it becoming somewhat attractive if I got into the game of fishing for critical way-of-fire hits while hidden - I got Adv. Hide anyway.
Hand-to-hand Combat, Dodge, Evasion
60 CP for 10%/5% dodge/defence? I wonder why people do this (maybe because they have tons of spare CP, like me).
Hold Bladed Edge
Nope:
*Doesn't work vs wards
*It basically reduces your possible exp chances (i.e. you don't have to repair your swords as often - I already included Mastersmith in the core build)
*It only works with swords (not even claymores! I understand why that is, though)
There are a few more skills (mostly mortal ones) I am considering. Stamina, Tap Ley Line, Surgery, Planar Protection... Parry? Mostly in that order, as well. I'm wondering if there's something fun out there of which I'm not aware of, or if there is something that is actually more useful than it first looks like. I'm open to suggestions here, as the character is virtually factionless, though might or might not join a faction of any alignment in the future.
Master of the Flow - Isn't it the case that one out of every five attacks will miss you and then any that don't have to hit vs your defense? _________________ Cheers,
Master of the Flow - Isn't it the case that one out of every five attacks will miss you and then any that don't have to hit vs your defense?
That would make the numbers better, actually. I was of the idea that it was the other way around: first they have to get through your defence, and if they connect, then they will subject to MotF. Against a 80% attack it would be:
I deem Master of Endurance pretty-OK based off of my experience last breath, though it's most useful if you're (A) not micromanaging your AP, meaning it amounts to 5 extra actions every day, and (B) carrying a whole hell of a lot of stuff. The latter is most relevant for shotgunners though, so unless you have a whole armory of enchanted weapons you probably don't need to worry about that. Wouldn't grab this until you pick up Stamina though. (Surprised not to see that on your list.)
Advanced Critical is only a so-so investement overall, but it's great when you're otherwise pinging Seraphs for 3 damage at a time. Given how much you're reaching for use of CP, that may be your best investment of the lot. YMMV though, especially if you're in a Good faction.
Dodge+Evasion is good because of how the math works out. In short, if a pet would normally have 20% chance to hit thanks to your other defense skills, having these knocks them to 10% chance to hit - cutting your damage received in half. It's not flashy, but the combination does make you significantly tankier, even if ESes are kinda blerg as tanks in the grand scheme of things.
Alternate rogue option if you want to be all kinds of goofy: Master of Hidden Energy. Won't help your damage, but you can attune yourself to elements 5 ticks at a time for extra tankiness! Yeah, NCs do it better.
My rec would probably be Advanced Crit, Stamina, and the defense tree.
My rec would probably be Advanced Crit, Stamina, and the defense tree.
+1 to that. Defense is especially great because you have to consider the fact that it makes every single hp (and further on, extra hp you may grab) more meaningful and potent. _________________ With me, always.
I deem Master of Endurance pretty-OK based off of my experience last breath, though it's most useful if you're (A) not micromanaging your AP, meaning it amounts to 5 extra actions every day, and (B) carrying a whole hell of a lot of stuff. The latter is most relevant for shotgunners though, so unless you have a whole armory of enchanted weapons you probably don't need to worry about that. Wouldn't grab this until you pick up Stamina though. (Surprised not to see that on your list.)
I'm mostly of the same mind on Endurance. I will be packing a Claymore, Warhammer, Sword, Sabre and Chainsaw, maybe also Truncheon, and a toolkit, so having spare room is nice. If I get Endurance, I'll surely get Stamina. I think I should've put it in the main list, yep.
MerlintheTuna wrote:
Advanced Critical is only a so-so investement overall, but it's great when you're otherwise pinging Seraphs for 3 damage at a time. Given how much you're reaching for use of CP, that may be your best investment of the lot. YMMV though, especially if you're in a Good faction.
I suppose I won't say "no" to extra damage. There's not much else I can do to improve it, and criticals *are* fun when they happen. It only hinges on whether I want to take the mediocre buff to attack, or keep putting more points on defense.
MerlintheTuna wrote:
Dodge+Evasion is good because of how the math works out. In short, if a pet would normally have 20% chance to hit thanks to your other defense skills, having these knocks them to 10% chance to hit - cutting your damage received in half. It's not flashy, but the combination does make you significantly tankier, even if ESes are kinda blerg as tanks in the grand scheme of things.
I had not thought of it that way. It really seems to get the upper hand over MotF wherever pets are concerned.
MerlintheTuna wrote:
Alternate rogue option if you want to be all kinds of goofy: Master of Hidden Energy. Won't help your damage, but you can attune yourself to elements 5 ticks at a time for extra tankiness! Yeah, NCs do it better.
Heh, I had actually thought of this. Problem is how expensive it is, and that it basically renders all evasion pointless (assuming you tank by using potions). But goofy nonetheless.
MerlintheTuna wrote:
My rec would probably be Advanced Crit, Stamina, and the defense tree.
Looks solid. I am not sure yet, but I miiiight not take Adv Crit, grind something else for kicks, and take Stamina, Defense tree, and Endurance. Like Sihoiba and Quixotic pointed out, it might be well to focus on making one side work better.
Master of the Flow - Isn't it the case that one out of every five attacks will miss you and then any that don't have to hit vs your defense?
That would make the numbers better, actually. I was of the idea that it was the other way around: first they have to get through your defence, and if they connect, then they will subject to MotF. Against a 80% attack it would be:
Master of the Flow - Isn't it the case that one out of every five attacks will miss you and then any that don't have to hit vs your defense?
That would make the numbers better, actually. I was of the idea that it was the other way around: first they have to get through your defence, and if they connect, then they will subject to MotF. Against a 80% attack it would be:
Master of the Flow - Isn't it the case that one out of every five attacks will miss you and then any that don't have to hit vs your defense?
That would make the numbers better, actually. I was of the idea that it was the other way around: first they have to get through your defence, and if they connect, then they will subject to MotF. Against a 80% attack it would be:
I am not sure which of the two actually happens, tough the 1st scenario would make it more worthwhile. Still, you have to activate it. Hm...
Actually, both of you are wrong. It doesn't make any difference at all which one is considered first since multiplication is commutative.
The "1st MotF, 2nd defence: 80 - 16 - 30 = 34% final accuracy" line is wrong.
You'll have to explain that better, 'cause I'm not good at math :v
Defense in the game functions as a direct subtraction from the hit percentage of the attacker, IIRC, so no, they are not both multiplicative. Defense does not scale with the to-hit of the attacker, but Master of the Flow does.
Thus, if Defense applies first, To-hit goes down, and thus Master of the Flow goes down as well. Contrast the situation where Master of the Flow applies to non-debuffed To-hit, and you will see that the order does matter.
EDIT: Relevant:
Quote:
This dodge (or defense) value can be obtained through a number of skills (like Dodge) and a spell. This value is subtracted directly from an attacker's % to hit.
EDITx2: Wiki suggests to me that MotF applies before Defense:
Quote:
This status gives all attacks made against the Eternal Soldier a flat 20% chance to miss.
I always thought MotF grants a temporary +20% to defense, in that case it would actually be useful. An independent 1 out of 5 miss roll for such a high activation cost isn't worth the CP IMO, especially if you could get the evasion tree and/or stamina instead. I'd agree with recommending to get Advanced Crit, Stamina, and the defense tree. _________________ Real Mages Cast from Mana
I always thought MotF grants a temporary +20% to defense, in that case it would actually be useful. An independent 1 out of 5 miss roll for such a high activation cost isn't worth the CP IMO, especially if you could get the evasion tree and/or stamina instead. I'd agree with recommending to get Advanced Crit, Stamina, and the defense tree.
MotF basically applies an extra % roll to every hit that would connect, and 20% time makes that hit miss.
Yukari: Please, read my post, again... I explained it thoroughly
From what you write it seems you actually understand MotF right, the problem is with your usage of defense, all you have to do is to look at the 80% to hit and rewrite it:
(original %) 80% =/= 16% to miss due to MotF + 30% to miss due to DEF + 34% (final to hit %)
(original %) 80% == 10% (miss due to MotF, but not due to DEF) + 6% (miss due to both MotF and DEF) + 24% (miss due to DEF, but not due to MotF) + 40% (final to hit %)
Can you see where did the 6% move in the bottom equation?
...like I said, the second calculation in your post is okay, but in the first, you are subtracting attacks that would miss due to both due to DEF and MotF too many times.
Aidan: I didn't say that the 20% miss chance and 30% defense are multiplicative. I said that the 80% not missing chance and 50% hitting through defence chance are multiplicative.
As for your point, yes, MotF scales with to-hit... but it also scales with DEF... so that was a wrong question to ask.
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